Creativity And Songwriting With Eyvindur Karlsson – Episode 25

Eyvindur Karlsson is an Icelandic singer-songwriter, theater professional and author. He teaches songwriting to serious musicians who want to improve their skills and write better songs.

Eyvindur Karlsson is an Icelandic singer-songwriter, theater professional and author. He teaches songwriting to serious musicians who want to improve their skills and write better songs. Eyvindur writes Americana and folk music in the vein of Tom Waits and Nick Cave, and likes to tell sad stories, mixed with a good dose of humor. He has published a crime novel, been a translator for many years, directed and acted in theater productions, written songs for award winning musicals, traveled around the world with his theater projects and has worked on TV and radio series. He lives in Iceland, with his wife and two sons.

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00:32 Welcome everyone to the Confidence in Singing Podcast. I’m here today with Eyvindur Karlsson. Welcome Eyvindur. Thank you. Let me tell you a little bit about Eyvindur. He’s such an interesting guest and we recently got acquainted, and Eyvindur is an Icelandic singer songwriter, theater professional and author. He teaches songwriting to serious musicians who want to improve their skills and write better songs. Eyvindur writes Americana Folk music in the vein of Tom Waits and Nick Cave and he likes to tell sad stories, mixed with a good dose of humor. He is published a crime novel in Icelandic written songs for award winning musicals, travelled around the world with his theatre product projects and has worked on TV and radio series’. He lives in Iceland with his wife and two sons welcome Eyvindur!

01:29 thank you so much. Thanks for having me.

01:31 Oh, I’m so I’m looking forward to talking with you about songwriting, about singing, about confidence. And, and a little bit about your journey, you know, this interesting, you know, path you’ve taken with your music and all the different ways that you’re expressing yourself creatively. Tell us a little bit about your story. Where does it begin?

01:56 Well, I was born at an early age. And my parents are theatre professionals to their actors, directors, my dad is a playwright. So I kind of I never had a chance, really. And I, yeah, I can’t really decide what I want to be when I grow up. So I tend to just do a little bit of everything. And for the longest time, it was something that I was trying to avoid, I wanted to try to pick one thing, because I kept thinking, I’ll never be very good at anything, because I keep, you know, running back and forth between different things. But in recent years, and I’m a late bloomer, this, I’ve been kind of realizing that, actually, this is, the best way for me to function is to not, because if I find that if I stay on one thing, like completely focused on one thing for too long, I just, I get depressed, and I can’t do it. So I’ve found that the best way for me to function as an artist is to do a little bit of everything. So I’m a director, I am an actor. Music has certainly been my number one passion. I think, throughout the years, that’s been the one constant, I never seem to get very far away from music. Whereas I might write for a few months, and then I’ll just kind of put that aside and move on to something else. And theater by the nature of it tends to be in short bursts here and there. Or not so short, but you know, it comes and goes. Whereas, music is kind of always there for me. When did it start? Yes, I you know, I wrote this novel, it was released in 2007. And I’ve written some more. There’s, I think there’s an airplane flying over my house.

04:10 I can’t really hear it, don’t worry. Okay, good,

04:12 good. Good, because I can. But yeah, so that was in 2007. I have written a couple more, but they haven’t been you know, I haven’t released them yet. And so yeah, I kind of tend to go back and forth between all of these different things. And that’s, I think, you know, I I’m first and foremost, I’m a storyteller, and my music tells stories and I like to tell stories in different formats. And I think it’s sort of become where you know, I Oh, I have this idea and you know, is this story best told through music or is it best told through fiction or is it best told through I even now I’m Getting fascinated with visual arts, which is something that I’ve never been good at. And now I want to do that I really want to learn to, to express myself visually as well. So I’m just, I guess, as long as it’s creative, it is right. For me,

05:15 you’re multi talented, multi passionate, and I think a lot of creative people will identify with what you’re saying. And certainly I know my husband, Mike, he wants to be really good at just one thing, but he happens to be passionate about many things, and really good at many things. So you’ve got to work what you got. And I’m definitely one for following my instincts. So I have no problem with that keep going with the many, many things. Why not?

05:45 Yeah, someone told me that it’s, this is an actual thing. Just recently, someone said, Oh, you’re a multi potentialite, which was a word that I had never heard before. And there have been books written on this. And apparently, this is just a personality trait, and I’m not abnormal. People are like this. So that was a relief.

06:10 that’s good. That’s good. So where did you get the confidence to start putting your creativity out there?

06:21 it was hard fought. I mean, it was not easy. I’ve never been a very confident person, really. And especially when it comes to singing, I think that’s because I’ve always been creative. And I’ve always loved you know, creating art, whatever it might be, it’s, it’s kind of magical to me still. Even now, I’m, I’m 40 years old. And I’ve been doing this pretty much since I was born, which I guess we all children are creative. And then society kind of kills it in many of us, sadly. But it’s still so magical to me that we as humans are able to create something that didn’t exist before. I just, I never stop being amazed when I even when I am, this sounds kind of egotistical, but when I listen to the songs that I’ve written, or, or when I sing them, or, you know, read something that I that I wrote, or whatever, it feels amazing to me that, that didn’t exist before I put it there. And that, you know I’m not a religious person or a spiritual person, really. But that to me is that’s my spirituality is creativity, that whenever when I when people talk about a spiritual experience, that to me is if I, the way I connect with that is thinking about creativity in those experiences that I’ve had. That was a little bit of a tangent, sorry. But so for me, it didn’t used to be about putting things out there really. And I was always afraid of that it was just about the experience of creating something. And when I first started, I started writing songs. And I originally I wrote instrumental things, electronic things. And then I started writing more songs in the sense that something that you sing, and I never had the confidence to perform them. Because I didn’t feel like I could sing. It was not a skill that I felt I had. And then I think it was like you said, I I’ve been inspired by Tom Waits and Nick Cave, Leonard Cohen, Neil Young, those sorts of artists and Bob Dylan, which are not who are not famous for having the sort of classically beautiful voices or even in some cases are known for not singing very well. And that I think, listening to those artists, and hearing those in many cases, grating sounds and those imperfect performances, if you will. It sort of allowed me to to get the confidence to go up on stage and try it out. And initially, I just went on stage and imitated Tom Waits. That was what allowed me to get over my stage fright was I’m just going to go and I’m going to, I’m going to imitate Tom when I was singing an original song. But I sang it like Tom Waits, I just put on that growl. And, and I just did it. And it allowed me to get and for probably about a year after that, that was what I did, I’d go on stage and just imitate Tom Waits. And later, I found a quote by Tom Waits, where he said, all artists are imitating someone and doing a bad job. And that’s how you find your voice. So that was how I initially got over my stage fright my fear of, of singing in public. And, and yeah, and it took me a while to get over that. And it took me even longer to consider myself a decent singer. And I still don’t think I’m,

11:13 you know, I think my voice is okay. But technically, I’m not a great singer. And I realized this, but I think confidence in a way, at least for me, comes from being aware of my limitations. So I kind of know what I need to do to be able to, you know, I need a lot of practice. I’m not a singer who can, well, I can’t sing from sheet music. First of all, I can read sheet music, but I can’t, I need to, like play it on a piano or something before I can sing it. I can’t sight read. But I need I need a lot of rehearsal in order to feel confident in what I’m doing. So that’s what I do. I, I work very hard to be able to gain that confidence to be able to sing. And I like it. That’s kind of how I do it. Yeah, I’d say it is hard work.

12:07 it is, but anything worthwhile, if you put a bit of hard work behind, it tends to have that better quality. And I think a lot of artists, like you know; we go to gigs, sometimes. And the first two or three songs are really, they’re like, the warm up songs, you know, and so I sometimes wonder if, you know, musicians are rehearsing enough, so I like that you err on the side of too, you know, more rehearsing rather than less rehearsing!

12:35 Yeah, I do. And, and, you know, I think everything. Everything comes down to work, and to practice and experience. And that’s kind of the, you know, because I coach songwriters, and it’s the same with songwriting, as with singing and everything else, the more you do it, the better you get. And the longer between, you know, the if you if you take a long break from it from whatever it is, then it’s going to be painful, it’s same as physical exercise, same as anything, you know, you need to do it, otherwise, you’re going to pull a muscle and that’s, I mean, that’s what the voice is its muscles. And, and the same with, you know, the muscles in the brain that you use to, to create. And, and then, of course, it follows that, if you’ve been doing it, like now, I’ve been doing it for 20 years, I’ve been singing in public for 20 years, I’ve been writing music, consistently, somewhat consistently, and, you know, semi professionally or professionally for 20 years. So now, I don’t need to work as hard. You know, my rehearsals take a lot shorter, because I know, because I’ve done a lot of hard work before. So it’s not like, you know, yes, now I can pick up a song and I can you know, if, if there’s a cover song, or if I’m, you know, working on one of my new songs or whatever, you know, it might take me an hour or two, to get it to a place that would have taken me 12 hours, you know, 15 years ago. Yeah. And that’s, that’s what, that’s what you get from working hard on whatever your skill set is, whether that’s singing or playing an instrument, any Well, I mean, singing is playing an instrument in a way I guess. But you know, whatever your instrument is, or whatever your talent or your skill is, the more years you’ve spent working on it, the faster you can do it. And that’s why you know, for anybody who is, you know, a professional that anything that’s what you don’t charge for your time you charge for the, you know, the years you’ve spent getting to the place where you are now because yes, I can spend 30 minutes to do something, and I’ll charge you for a lot more because it would have taken somebody with less experience, you know,

15:05 a lot longer. Yes, exactly. That’s so interesting. And yeah, I think a lot of us struggle to see the value of our experience in that way. Yeah, and it’s really important to, to know, to be to be able to see where you’re truly at. And sometimes that’s where a coach, like a singing teacher can come in, and let you know, kind of what it is, or you need to do to get to the next stage, are you putting enough time in? Are you practicing in a way that actually is going to make a big difference to your voice? Or are you just kind of doing something that’s the bare minimum, and I get frustrated too, sometimes with students that I feel have a lot of potential. And I don’t see them, you know, putting the right type of practice in or getting, you know, even like, I want them to come for a few more lessons or something. And I’d be like, Oh, I wish they just would, because I feel they’re on that cusp of you know, making a big breakthrough. But often people don’t just immediately you don’t know what you don’t know. And that’s why having someone with a bit of expertise to look at what where you’re at clearly is a huge benefit. Tell us a little bit about the coaching that you do for songwriters, because I know one of the reasons you got in touch with me was because of a podcast I did with David Drake, who’s a LA based singer, songwriter. Why was it, that you got in touch, why was it that you were so impressed with that podcast episode?
16:36 Yeah, I thought it was so great, because one of the things that David talked about was, like consistency. And, you know, like, we were just talking about just showing up and doing the work. And, you know, and approaching it professionally. And what I mean by that is like, as a, you know, in a professional manner, not treating it like something ethereal, that you just sit around and wait for the gods to smile upon you and hand you this thing. And that’s been a big part of my, what I teach to my clients. And, and it’s just, it’s helped me so much in my career to realize this. You know, like I said, I work in theater a lot. And I’ve, I’ve written music for quite a few theater productions and musicals. And I realized extremely quickly, and it was kind of a rude awakening, when I got my first job like that, that it’s you can’t just sit around and wait for something to happen. You need to go out and make it happen. You need to sit down and do the work. And, you know, sitting around waiting for inspiration, that doesn’t work, you need to figure out methods to go and find material to work from. So it resonated with me what David was talking about, about just you just sit down, and this is job like any other job, you know, it reminds me of this story that Jerry Seinfeld told where he, he was sitting in a coffee shop or something in New York, and he was just beginning to make it as a comedian. And he was looking across the street at a construction site. And there were these guys in hard hats going around with their tools and doing their thing. And they just showed up at a certain hour. And then they worked all day. And then they left and they were building this house. And so Jerry thought that’s you know, those guys are they get paid a lot less than me. And their job is a lot is probably not as fun as my job is. And they show up at a certain time. And they stay until the work is done. And so that’s what I need to do. And so from that moment on, he just set a schedule where he would show up to work at a certain time he would write jokes, and then you know, he wouldn’t stop until that whatever time he had decided was up. And I think this is so important for artists, whatever kind of artists, they might be whether painters or singers, songwriters, guitarists, writers, whatever, if you just show up when you feel like it. That’s not a good basis for a career. So if you want if you are serious about whatever your art form is, you need to be serious about showing up for work. And

19:50 that’s great advice. Oh

19:53 I mean, it’s yeah, it’s just there is no way I think to have anything more than a hobby, unless you show up every day. And, you know, and that means showing up when you really don’t feel like it when you just want to, you know, stay in bed, or whatever the case may be, you know, it’s, you need to, you need to be a hard boss, if you’re your own boss,

20:22 definitely. But one of the biggest issues, I think, for me with singers, and I feel it myself, for my own songwriting, it’s this identity part. So if I don’t see myself, you know, say, if someone doesn’t see themselves as a writer, they’re like, Oh, I’d love to be writer, I don’t know if I can add a little bit. If you don’t own that identity and say, I am an even starting with, I’m an aspiring writer, or I am, yeah, you’re part time writer or whatever it is. But to own that sense, that portion of identity around that thing that you want to do. And from claiming that as yours to whatever portion it can be, that gives you the next the foundation for creating those structures, and those habits and things that we need to actually be a success at that thing.

21:16 Yes, and I’m a big believer in affirmations and positive self talk. And there’s a an exercise that I do with my clients that I’d love to just share, we’d love that, if I may. This is something that I picked up years and years ago, and I didn’t come up with this at all, but it’s really powerful. And I use it a lot for myself and for the people I work with. So it’s a it’s a like a mind exercise. And anybody listening should just do this. Now, just grab a piece of paper and a pen. And just pause the conversation and just go grab a piece of paper and a pen. And so what you’re going to do is just close your eyes, and picture where you want to be like, where’s the end of your like, not the end, but like where’s the ultimate destination? In your journey as an artist, where do you want to be? If you could be like, really selfish, and just make all of your artistic dreams come true, what would that look like? And just really picture this, just in every detail. Like if you’re a singer. If you’re a classical singer, do you want to be, do you want to be singing at the Met in New York? Or, or if you’re if you’re a pop singer, do you want to be selling out stadiums as a performer? Or whatever it is just go nuts. Dream big. Think of the ultimate where you could like the furthest you can possibly imagine going. And, and make it as big, make it too big, make it something that you could never believe that you could accomplish. Just go there, think about it and envision it. And then when you have that image in your head, really clear, a really clear image of what that looks like, and what it feels like. Then I want you to think about and write down what people say about you. So do they say she has the most amazing voice. Or if you’re a songwriter, do they say oh, they write the most profound lyrics I’ve ever heard. Whatever the case may be, just imagine, in your wildest dreams, when you’ve accomplished everything you could ever hope to accomplish, what do you want people to say about you, and write down as many as you can. And so once that’s done, and you should pause now and just do this. So once you’ve written those down, preferably, you know five to 10 take all of those and turn them into first person positive affirmations. So if it was she has such a beautiful voice, then write down I have a beautiful voice. And if it’s they write such beautiful lyrics, then, I write deep and profound lyrics. You know, you get the idea. Take all of those things and turn them into positive affirmations. And then take all of those. You should have quite a few positive affirmations by now. If you’ve been following along, you should take all of those and you should write come down on like a nice piece of paper, or maybe you can go to, or somewhere on the internet or, you know, Photoshop or whatever you have access to, and set them up in a nice kind of way that where you can print them out and make them look nice or whatever, whatever you have access to. And wherever you are, if you’re really good at calligraphy, do that, or whatever, and then hang them up in your creative space. So, you know, I always recommend that artists have their little creative space, it might just be a corner of the living room, or it might be a chair or whatever. But, just, there’s, it’s just always better if you can have the same space where you do your creative work every day. And just have it there so that it’s in front of you when you’re in that creative mode. So that’s my, that’s my exercise, that is I think, a really good if you if you look at this all the time and internalize, it is amazing what it does for your, for your confidence.

26:06 That’s a wonderful exercise. So I would love all of our listeners to come back and let us know how they do with the exercise. And it’s something that I definitely do myself. And I use affirmations as questions as well. So I would I also would move say from I have a good voice to why do I have such a good voice? Why is it easy for me to have a good voice, and then it kind of creates a little bit of problem solving within me, where that’s something that I’ll start working on, I’ll start doing my warm ups more and things like that. So we’ve got so much… our brains are just wired to go one direction, they get a neural pathway, it’s like it’s set that way. And if someone has told you, you’re not good at something, or it’s hard to make money in music, which was what my dad used to say, if it gets set in your brain so strongly that it’s very difficult than to take any action towards your creative goals. And it’s so important that each of us take responsibility to change those and know that it definitely is possible to change it, I work for myself in the music world. And despite the fact that I was told, you know that it wasn’t possible. And it’s amazing. It’s actually I surprised myself every day, and I’m sure you surprise yourself too. Eyvindur, with all of the things that you’ve accomplished with your music, and your creativity.

27:44 Yeah, and I love that you brought up those neural pathways, and all of that. Because the, it’s, it’s remarkable what happens in our brains. Like, it’s the same. Same with addiction, and with habits and all these kinds of things. They are grooves in the brain. And so it’s very easy to default to the same negative self talk and all of those limiting beliefs and everything because they’re, they’re like physical grooves in our brains. But we can change them. And this is one of the ways is by just, you know, doing those positive affirmations, having mantras that we repeat to ourselves, and also just doing it, you know, and like, for me, I, 20 years ago, you could never have convinced me that I could ever have been a singer. It was this wasn’t a thing. There was no way. Now 20 years later, yeah, that’s, you know, I’ve, I’ve changed those pathways in my brain. And so, you know, it’s, it’s remarkable what we can, what we can accomplish if we, if we just set a course and stick to it, and just retrain our brains. But the thing is, of course, it takes a lot more positive affirmations than it takes negative feedback. So, those limiting beliefs that we’ve heard 1000 times, we need a million positive things to offset that.

29:35 That’s so true. And it can take a few years for things to start to make sense as well. And absolutely, it takes a bit of staying power and hard work. Yeah, exactly. But if it’s something that you’re enjoying, I think a lot of people are doing a lot of hard work in lots of areas of life that maybe they don’t really want to be putting that hard work and choose to put the hard work in where you were, you’re going to be rewarded for that. And I think creativity is an amazing reward in itself.

30:06 Yeah, and that’s one of the things also that I, you know, I spend a lot of time on with, with my clients is to just figure out, you know, even just in the realm of songwriting, or as a musician, or whatever, where should you be concentrating your energy? Because we only have a finite amount, we only have a finite amount of time. And so making sure when you’re setting goals and setting that course, making sure that it’s in alignment with your current situation in life and your values, and all of those things is so important. Because otherwise, that’s happened to me, certainly, and you might have experienced the same where, you know, I have spent months of my life spinning my wheels trying to do something, even though it is in a creative field, it still wasn’t the right thing for me. And I realized that after, I’m not gonna say wasting time, because I don’t believe that you can waste time because you’re always learning something. You’re always growing as a person. But, you know, I probably could have made more headway in, you know; towards where I want to go if I hit prioritize differently.

31:19 Yeah, I agree. It’s so important to choose. And it’s interesting. I was actually writing a post there today, and I’m promoting a new event, which is the Voice and Song Summit. And that all came about, because I trusted my intuition and my instincts and started to feel when I was happy, I think, you know, it’s almost like, can you feel in your body when you’re happy? Are you allowing yourself to choose things that make you happy? Because a lot of people tend to be a little bit hard on themselves, or bit too frugal about things sometimes, when you start to notice, oh, what I want to wear today is this thing, the way kids do sometimes, you know, they’re like, No, my, my nephew was like when he was three or four years old, was able to say those shoes are my style. And his mother was like, oh, really? And so we have our own instincts, but we stopped following them, we stopped trusting them. And by trusting myself a little more, and following my instinct a little more, I’ve managed to create this voice and song summit happening in mid May, if any of you are interested, this is May 2022. Actually, in case you’re listening to the podcast in the future sometime. But it’s actually been an amazing journey to start to trust myself. And it began actually with simple things like, you know, creating my workspace making my workspace look nice. You know, just making choices that are based on what you truly want, instead of what you think you should want or what other people would think is the best plan.

33:03 Have you? Are you familiar with the artists’ way?

33:06 I have heard of it? And I know of it, but I’ve never actually done that. It’s a book, right?

33:12 Yes. That’s and that’s pretty much well, a lot of what we’ve been talking about is like what it is, that’s, you know, it’s about allowing yourself to, is to be an artist and not to be ashamed of that, because society wants us to feel ashamed for being artists. And, and one of the big things that I do to this, I try to do every day. I don’t but I try, is one of the main things from that book is to write morning pages. In fact, this is my morning, this is what it

33:53 is beautiful. So if you’re listening to the podcasts, we’re looking at Julia Cameron’s book.

33:59 This is actually not the book. This is the work morning pages journal

34:03 journal. Okay. Oh, that’s the physical proof now that Eyvindur is doing his morning pages.

34:11 Yeah. So you write three pages longhand, every morning. Soon as like, the minute you get up.
Well, I meditate and then I do this and it’s it sets me up beautifully for the day. And it, I think what you’re saying about intuition, I feel like I’m more in touch with my intuition when I do this because it i It’s basically just stream of consciousness, you’re not writing about anything in particular. So whenever I’m like, my brain is having problem processing something, this is fantastic. Just why am I thinking because the whole point is trying to stop as little as possible not to like stare into space and try to think of something to write but just writing. So, a lot of things come out like, Well, what do I want to do about, why am I thinking about this? What do I, and it really helps. And it, it’s great to just give yourself permission to be a creative. And that’s kind of what I was saying earlier about spirituality that books a lot about spirituality. And that’s kind of we’re going through that book was when I realized, oh, creativity is my, that’s my spiritual side. You know? That’s when I think the reason is because, you know, spirituality is about, it’s kind of, you know, there are things that you don’t understand. I think that’s kind of I guess, there are many different definitions. But to me, it’s like, okay, so things, I don’t understand the things that are beyond my power. And, you know, for some people, that’s a deity of some kind. For me, it’s just the creative force, because I don’t understand how it works, I don’t understand how we are able to do this. And so that’s kind of Yeah, that’s like, my extra meditation is getting in touch with it through those morning pages.

36:06 That’s awesome. So before we start to wind things up a little bit, I would love for you to let the audience know more about where they can find your music, and your other creative projects. I know that your crime novel is still only available in Icelandic. So we’ll be waiting for that now.

36:23 Yeah, yeah, yeah, it’s, it’s coming. Watch this space. So if you want my, if you want to check out my music, and things like that, and that’s probably where I’ll end up. Because, I do want to start getting more into writing. And since I’m embracing my multi passionate side, I’m going to just put music in any kind of art, I’m just going to put it put it in the same place. So because my name is tricky, the easiest way to get there is to go to a website, which is one bad So, not many bad days

37:04 Because one of them is that the number one or older?

37:07 that’s all written out phonetically. Yeah, one bad, That is, which is the Icelandic domain extension. If you’re interested in, you know, if people are, are songwriters or want to be songwriters out there, then my songwriting website is strong And there I have a podcast on songwriting. And I also have a thing, there’s a quiz there, that’s going to pop up on the front page, where you can answer a few questions. And it’s going to point out the area you should focus on as a songwriter. So it works, whether you’re a veteran or beginner. And a lot of people I find have sort of blind spots as to what might be holding them back, especially experienced songwriters, I find, because it’s, you know, we’ve been doing this a long time, I think this is probably true for any artist, it’s easy to not see the forest for the trees, you know, and so you’re doing good, and you’re writing good stuff. But you know, there might be one or two things that are keeping you from progressing to the next level. So, so I developed this, this quiz on the site where you can just, you know, get an opinion on sort of what it is. And then, you know, I offer free consultations for if people are interested in that, and a lot of different things on there. So that’s something that I think is useful,

38:47 perfect. Oh, I’m sure it is useful. I’m sure it is. It’s been an absolute pleasure to have you joined us today on the comfidence in singing podcast

38:57 time has flown, hasn’t it? It really has.

38:59 What was there anything that you still wanted to say to the listeners before we wind up,

39:06 just make music, just do it. Step out of your comfort zone anytime you can. That’s my biggest tip for anybody trying to build confidence in any field is if something scares you, it’s probably worth doing. Because, it’s going to make you, because failure is always going to build you up. And there is no scenario where an artist is going to unless they’re doing something incredibly dangerous. You’re probably not going to die if you fail. And as long as you don’t die from the failure that might result from whatever it is you’re doing outside of your comfort zone. It’s gonna be worth doing because you’re gonna learn from it. And chances are you might not fail, and then it’s going to be fantastic. So I’m firmly, I firmly believe that music makes the world a better place. So anytime you’re out there making music, you’re providing a vital service and just keep doing it.

40:14 That’s really wonderful. Thank you so much Eyvindur for joining us here

40:18 and thank you so much for having me.

40:21 You’re so welcome and thanks to all the listeners for listening in, please let us know how you how the exercise goes for you. And if you check out the artists way, both of us, we would love to hear from you and definitely check out a vendor’s website and and strong songwriting dotnet strong writing, strong writing Okay, strong writing double play on words net. Perfect. Those links will be in the show notes as well for anybody listening. We look forward to having you listening again to the next confidence in singing podcast. Thank you and goodbye.

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