Choosing A Non-Binary Voice With Mattia Maurée – Episode 13

Mattia Maurée is a life coach and interdisciplinary composer. They’re particularly passionate about disability justice, trans rights, and trauma recovery through the arts and embodiment.

Connect with Mattia:

INSTAGRAM & TICTOC: @pufflingmoo

Welcome to the Confidence in Singing podcast. This is Aideen and I’m very happy to welcome Mattia Mauree to the podcast today. And Mattia is a life coach and an interdisciplinary composer. They’re particularly passionate about Disability Justice, trans rights, Trauma Recovery through the arts and embodiment. And Mattia I’m so interested to find out a little bit more about all of these wonderful interests that you have. But also to find out a little bit about your journey as a musician, as a composer, and I suppose specifically for the confidence and singing podcast, what your journey has been like as a singer. Can you tell us a little bit about your when you discovered how much the joy of singing for you? What was the circumstances? What was? Where were you?

Well, that’s a good question. Hi, thank you. So I my parents are both musicians. My dad is a church musician, and my mom was a music teacher. So I grew up around music all the time, and started playing piano when I was three and violin when I was four. And I did not formally take voice lessons until my teens but because my mom taught voice she taught me how to breathe very young. So I kind of you know, I just doing diaphragmatic breathing basically my whole life and just around people singing a lot. So I would say I’ve always known the joy of singing, we actually had a rule at our house that we were not allowed to sing at the dinner table because it would just get out of hand. Just like just be singing and not eating so yeah, I was I was very much around singing all the time. And then it’s funny because I practiced violin so so hard, and it’s a difficult instrument and I feel like I put so much work in on violin to get to just a barely acceptable like get into college point. I was never going to be a soloist and singing when I started actually studying it and doing it it just felt so much more natural and probably because I already have developed the ear you know from from childhood doing a pitched instrument where you have to you know, it’s very pitch dependent.

Explain that. For the people who don’t understand this because I mean, sure for for someone who’s playing violin is, you know, I always say to my students when they start singing and they’re like, I don’t make it make a sound and they’re like, but I how do I how do I pick the right sound and I’m so I just tell them that they have to guess, because not the same as looking at a node on a keyboard where you can see that the middle C is a certain place. So can you explain to people what that is like for violinist?

Yeah, yeah. And actually, I think another good comparison is guitar if you’ve seen a guitar, the little metal pieces on the neck are frets and so if you push anywhere in between two frets, you’re still getting the same note basically, versus on a violin there’s no frets anywhere you touch is going to be a different pitch and it’s just there are an infinite possible number of pitches and the voice is the same voice and violin are actually very similar and voice especially I feel like that psychological component is so much so important of having that intention and knowing what sound you’re trying to produce. And that’s that’s kind of also just been my my vocal journey is both reimagining the sounds that I’m trying to produce and then trying to actually get it

yeah cuz it isn’t it’s not necessarily going to come out the way you you hope it’s going to come out and so many factors affect how our voice sounds even day by day. Yep, so you know how you send it earlier this morning? versus how you’re going to sound in the evening can be quite different.

Yeah, definitely.

So your when you discovered that you were kind of comfortable and singing and that you felt you had some skill there more maybe natural affinity for using your own voice versus violin. What was the What did you decide to do with that?

While it was also partly led because I was in a car accident and I couldn’t play violin for a bit so I started taking voice lessons that was that was kind of the the crux of it. And then I transferred schools so I went to school in the Midwest in the US that is known for choral singing so I was like okay, I’ll just go there I’ll take voice lessons will be in the choir. And and and just really enjoyed the whole process. And one of the things that I found in singing In group singing in particular, so like as in choral singing, or chamber choir, was that that particular transcendent experience of all singing together? I rarely found that an orchestra, even though again, I enjoyed violin, and I was an orchestra as a kid, I felt like choir just sort of naturally got me to that. I don’t know, transcendent place. That that is one of the reasons I love music. So that was a huge part of it for me.

Wonderful. So when you say transcendent, it’s almost like, like you are connecting with the divine, for instance, would be another way, I might say something like that. Would that be what you mean?

Yeah, yeah. And then also just a really strong connection to the group and kind of, you know, feeling like we’re having this experience together. Yeah,

I mean, singing is just, it’s so interesting in terms of as an instrument, because we can, we can say that this the voices and instruments is that people don’t realize that it is an instrument. But when we use it, we’re using our whole bodies, and we’re getting extra oxygen into our bodies, we’re having to stand a certain way. So it changes your, your posture, and that can change how you feel about yourself or your mental health even. And that sense of community when you sing in a group, of course, is really, really good for, for connecting and feeling connected. Yeah. Yeah. So I that’s, that’s interesting. And when we when you were, we’re going through your teenage years, I know that you had some misgivings about the sound of your voice, you didn’t always like your voice. And that’s something that that I share. I didn’t always like the sound of my voice. But for you, this was a lot more than just I don’t like the sound of my voice. Would you like to tell people a little bit about your journey and what was happening for you in your teens? It’s, I’m presuming It started in your teens. But if it started earlier, go from there.

Yeah, yeah. So I’m non binary. And I came out, I think when I was 24-25. So but I’d been talking about it for years before that, and just kind of nobody listens to me. I’m not you know, if you’re if you’re binary trans, they’re usually sort of things that you’re saying and doing that are so obvious that people can’t ignore it. But I was just kind of like, Oh, this just doesn’t make sense to me. And so

for me explain that a little more, because I know that my listeners particularly and in Ireland as well, that may not understand even some of the terminology you were using just then can you explain that just a tiny bit more so that we get that bit kind of clear before you keep going?

Yeah, so binary gender is the idea that there’s just male and female. Which is funny, because that’s a very new idea that has basically not existed in any culture ever because intersex people exist. So at the very least, there should be at least three genders. And if we look at biological markers, there would be something like 16 or 17 different genders. So just in a basic biological level, the binary doesn’t really exist in the way that we talk about it. So when people say non binary, they basically just mean anything outside of the male female kind of dichotomy. Okay, again, I just, you know, don’t really think in the sense that it does, I’m outside I know it’s

spiritual worlds, we’d always we talk about, you know, that each person would have both feminine and masculine energy and we all have Yin and Yang so there’s, I think in some communities, it’s more acceptable that we’re not just one thing and that we will use different you know, we’ll present in different ways in different environments or for you know, depending on the situation.

Yeah, so I use they them pronouns, which are gender neutral pronouns, which also are has have a long history of being used, but they’re back in vogue again. And the way that this played out in my voice is that even though I wasn’t necessarily thinking about it this way, I’ve always been before I started testosterone, I was a high soprano. So when I was younger, I was always you know, singing the really high stuff in choir and I remember just feeling like this top octave of my voice isn’t really useful for anything except classical singing, right? Like there’s there’s a whole operatic repertoire and I did not feel like standing on stage and just singing off for seven minutes. So high soprano repertoire is like look what I can do and I just had no interest in that. I mean, you know, I learned some of the repertoire but i just i didn’t enjoy it other other than that, it’s always fun to have a challenge I guess. So it was you know, the challenge, but I really just didn’t connect with the sound of my voice. And I also felt like my voice was very boring. So I also had just like a very sort of, I don’t know I don’t I don’t want to. I don’t want to sound too negative, but I always felt like it was just sort of like this very like bland, Mozart, kind of, you know, soprano voice without a lot of like weight or color to it. Yeah and in retrospect one of the things in the in the system of voices you know the soprano, contralto, etc those those different a lot of those, the way that we classify voices are by weight and color and not just by range right so what I was kind of latching on to was what I wanted was more weight and my voice so it wasn’t just about the range. And so that’s the main thing that being on testosterone has done my range has come down some but my voice is also a lot thicker and my vocal cords are literally thicker that’s what it does.

So interesting because I think most people have trouble loving their own voice you know that I especially you know, when we record our voices, everybody’s like, Oh, I can’t listen to when I was in college, I studied jazz music and I everything that we played i transpose down to and I have I met a soprano voice if you go by cat I don’t generally categorize my students because I don’t work with opera with classical singers myself when I’m teaching, but I have taken classical lessons and I was a mezzo soprano but I didn’t want to and that that type of tone tends to be bright and light and fresh. And people would always say at a very young voice, they would think I was much younger than I was you know when I was in my late 20s and 30s and even late 30s people thought you know I was in my 20s because of the tone that I you know used in my voice and also during college years I would just tried to sing everything really really low which didn’t wasn’t really working with what I had and working with my sweet spot in my voice but it’s it’s an interesting journey for anyone to start to accept your voice and just make decisions around that so you know you made a decision that was going to actually change the quality and tone of your voice and and there’s nothing wrong with that whatsoever. And then there’s lots of other ways I don’t know if you’ve studied or looked at the Estill method of voice production now might be of interest to you because it talks about you know, one of the things that the larynx you know moves up and down and you know the the muscles and and the tendons within the larynx in your neck basically for those of you who are wondering what I’m talking about, and but those things are things that we can sometimes control and but it takes a lot of effort to learn that and change the tone of your voice. And so when you started on your testosterone and you start your voice started to change that must have been quite a difficult time though as well because you were trying to make sound but you obviously weren’t going to know what was going to come out so I’m presuming that you took a few steps backwards with your kind of technique and qual and and getting pure tone and quality while you were figuring that out.

Yeah, quite a bit and it’s been it’s been a very interesting journey. Because before I started and I started on a very low dose to have slow changes, but before I started I had never really struggled vocally ever. not entirely true but like the basic classical repertoire that I was doing as long as I practiced i was i was just fine with whatever I was doing I just had again that kind of musical background and knowledge there and then starting T and having just sometimes sounds come out that are not what I expect at all sometimes they’re you know a fourth away you know, not just that I’m singing out of tune but like I literally like think I’m producing a shape for something and then it just comes out a completely different part of my you know, part of what would have been my range before and I’ve had to basically I basically started from scratch I think in terms of just you know, allowing things to come out which is something I think a lot of people do early on is just kind of like Alright, we’re just going to we’re going to try to make a healthy sound production and see what happens

Yeah, and it’s a scary kind of feeling especially because most of the time when something comes out that we don’t expect we feel would be judged for that there’s like a you know, if I if I understood or if I knew what I was doing it would be better but actually with something like singing No matter how much you understand the thing you still have to try it it’s like trial and error learning a lot of the time

Yes. And also having the technical background to be able to do what you want does not automatically mean that you’re going to be happy with your voice I can say someone that was recording and performing and just you know, I was I would listen to it and I would just I remember just thinking most of the time like oh that’s kind of boring. You know, I was I just didn’t like the way my voice sounded. Overall you know, I was getting a different for you. Yes, yeah, I feel I feel much more comfortable and it’s funny because my voice isn’t that different. It’s maybe I’m in my speaking voice. About an octave lower, which is amazing. Even though I still get mostly gendered female on the phone, I had a very high pitched voice before my singing voice is I’ve got on actually almost an octave added to the bottom of my range. Beautiful, mostly, it’s just the overall sound, I feel like I can get a much bigger, thicker sound than I get before, like ever again, like, exactly originally. And then also just a more useful part of my range, because I used to mostly get volume above the treble staff. That was where my voice got turned on And yeah, I feel like this is much more useful.

Absolutely. And I think that the classical training for singing is only for classical type of singing, you know, there’s, I mean, it’s a limiting in some ways, and I certainly found that you know, that I didn’t like, the way I would sing hymns. I know you, you came from church music as a young kid. And there was just a certain way that those things are song, especially if you’re singing within choir. And I just didn’t, it didn’t sound like me didn’t sound natural. And for me, I actually did, did some music lessons with a Speech Level Singing coach in San Francisco when I lived there. And that will change things for me because it was like I was making ugly, uglier, sounds like I was leaning into the voice leaning into the vocal folds a little more. And it just meant that when I sign it sounded almost like speaking. And I started to realize that there’s, there’s actually a lot more you can learn. And a lot of people don’t realize this, because they don’t understand the voice is an instrument and that you can play a guitar with your fingers, making chords and your hand strumming, or finger picking, or you can lie it on its side and do Hawaiian style. Like there’s lots of ways to play most instruments. But if you’ve grown up with only one way, it can be hard to to see those possibilities until you try them.

Yeah, yeah. And to get through that process of experimentation, and not liking the way that it sounds.

How long did that take for you to start to feel like you really like know your, your voice more?

Yeah, so the first, it’s been actually coming on for years now. And the first year just because I was on a low dose, it was so subtle and gradual that I didn’t really notice too much. And then there was about a year of feeling like it was just totally out of control. And I just like couldn’t control it too much. And I wasn’t trying to because that’s actually how people often damaged their voice when they’re transitioning as they try to like, especially going downward, they try to like muscle their voice down and stay at the very bottom of their range and be really gravelly, and you can you know, damage your cords or at the worst to get nodes. And when I was looking I had been looking online for years for advice from other classical what I was looking for, specifically as classical singers, because I knew that I was going to continue to want to, you know, record and perform. And there are some, but it was hard to find much info. So that’s one of the reasons I want to talk about it is because I feel like it can be really hard for people. There’s a lot of stuff out there for people who are like, Oh, yeah, I’m a you know, I’m an amateur singer, I love it. And I don’t really care if anything happens to my voice. And I was like, No, I’m I’m gonna care.

Yes, is that something that you work with people? And do you have? Because I know you do coaching… I don’t I’m not I’m not familiar with the kind of coaching you do. But do you do coach like music, you know, musically? Or is it just general life coaching that you tend to do? And have you worked with anyone like yourself?

Yes, so I do general life coaching and I teach music. But actually the way that I got into life coaching was because my voice students in particular were coming to me with essentially life problems. And I was like, it’s so weird. I feel like my my voice students especially are treating me like a therapist. And sometimes they would literally say could we not sing today and just talk? So yeah, exactly. And I think it’s because voice is so personal and psychological and you know, so affected by your focus. And you know, it’s on a lot of instruments. You can sit and practice for hours and hours and not pay too much attention. It’s I don’t recommend it. I would rather you focus and practice for less time. But like, people you can write, you can sit and just repeat and repeat. You can’t really do that with voice because you’ll wear yourself out. So I feel like that. Yeah, there’s just a bit too much more personal and psychological than a lot of instruments.

Yeah, I agree. And I think you know, our voice doesn’t lie. That’s the big thing. So if you’re having an emotional day, you unlike playing on a piano, your voice will it will let you know that I’m Having an emotional day it’s trying to it’s trying to communicate with you. And so it’s really interesting that how you got into life coaching because something similar has been happening to me as well. And, and you know, sometimes a student will literally apologize because they think that they should be asking me for, you know, or we should be singing. But that isn’t what’s going on for them on that on that particular day. And and they can’t really do the singing thing on that day, if the other stuff is in the way. So it’s it’s an interesting, it’s an interesting dynamic, isn’t it between teacher and student in that way?

Yeah, yeah, I think one of the main things I’ve noticed as well with transitioning is that more than ever before my practice session might need to just be quote, warmups. So you know, we’re usually warming up so that we can get to the repertoire of the song. And if I am warming up, and I’m having to focus a lot for just really basic placement, or to feel like I’m, you know, singing with ease and not hurting myself, then I just do that. And that’s been a really interesting shift to, to just really see any aspect of using my voice, even if it’s humming, or you know, because I like home when I go on walks, because it’s good for breath training, and so forth, and stuff like that, because I see all of this as part of a broader vocal practice, and not just the performance or, you know, finishing a piece.

And, you know, think through, it’s really interesting, I had a student earlier today, and due to COVID, she’s been living more on her own with one other adult in the house. And she, she came to me after a bit of a break, and she’s just had her grandkids around. And I was like, wow, your voice is so much, you have so much more range. Because she’s been using her voice differently. She’s been making funny voices, reading books, she’s been using her voice in such a way that it allowed her to, to transition very quickly to singing well. And I think for anybody who loves to sing, that sometimes they need to be reminded that you need to be using your voice every day, and try not to to be hermit and stay, you know, away from people too much. Even if it’s phone calls, or just humming, like you said, humming is is a beautiful, gentle way to be using your voice everyday. Yeah, really good. Okay, tell me a little bit more now about your composing because I do use the piano or the violin for composing because I know you’ve said you play both, I

guess I use both. I have been so composition is what my two degrees are. And so I started out in violin performance. And then I switched to composition midway through undergrad, and then got my master’s in composition. So I would say that’s my main thing at this point. And it’s it’s interesting, because I had always I’d seen myself as a performer, you know, at least half a performer or three quarters of a performer pretty much through undergrad. And then when I went and got a Master’s, I was like, Okay, I’m committing to this to composing. And one of the things that I’ve been able to do, which is cool, because I have a performance background is I’ve done a number of short film scores, where I’m able to write for myself, essentially, so right for piano, violin voice, and then I can record it myself and keep the budget low. So that’s been really, really fun. And when you are writing for yourself, you can write things that work for your voice right now. So even as my voice has been changing, I’ve been able to write things, you know that maybe the range is smaller than it would have been before, just because that’s where I can kind of keep a consistent sound today. Or literally sometimes, you know, going to record and realizing, oh, my voice is not going to do what I was hoping for today. So but I wrote it so I can change it.

That’s really useful and handy. And do you have a big interest in working with film more in the future?

Yeah, I really love film. I’m definitely I’m definitely going to keep doing it.

Interesting. And so the the things that you’re most passionate about, you mentioned in your bio disability, justice, trans rights and trauma recovery through the arts, and, is any of that something that you would like to tell people about right now on how it might relate to voice work?

Yeah, so disability, I’m autistic, and I’m hyper mobile, which is sorry, by injury very easily a sprain very easily. And so that was one of the reasons that with violin that it was very difficult because I was having joint pain along with that. And so singing was actually the sort of the most accessible instrument, I could always do it. I could always, you know, find a position for my body, even if it was laying down where I could warm up versus violin where you’re kind of twisting your body into a strange shape and keeping it there. For the remainder, there’s not really too much I’m going to do no Alexander Technique and some other things to kind of deal with tension. But violin is sort of known for not being great for your body. What was the next one?

Oh, that was all right before we go on to trans rights, just like almost like choosing the right instrument for you, that’s like such an so when you when you talk about you, your artistic and you have the hypermobility. And if you were advising say, a parent of a kid that had some similar issues, what would you have said, say to your parents early on that might have been useful in your journey?

Yeah, well, with both autism and ADHD, which have a lot of overlap, I would say what your kid is interested in which can change it will change right it will change over time, but what they’re interested in let them try it because that’s going to be more fun than just handing them an instrument and saying you know, do this thing and singing is great because it’s again so accessible you don’t have to buy anything other than you know, maybe a keyboard or something if you want that to kind of warm up with but you know, you can do it anywhere. And anybody can do it at any time. So I always love that

that’s perfect because just in case anybody was interested in what would be you know your advice and so yeah, let’s move on to trans rights.

Yeah, so being non binary I identify as trans gender also. And that’s that’s just important to me. I mean, you know, queer rights in general they’re they’re all related for sure. But there’s definitely you know, in America we’re still working on the federal protections for trans people so

yes, and how has that like has that affected you a lot like through I mean, you you went through your transition mainly in your 20s while you started your your hormone therapy in your 20s but as you experience a lot of bullying or was it was like was there a lot of difficulty for you and your teen years around that?

I was homeschooled, so there was nobody around to bully me. But for the most part, I mean, I’ve been in Massachusetts for the last 11 years, which is I mean, it certainly has its issues and certainly a lot of racism but as a white person and as a queer person for the most part I’ve probably only had a few incidents here versus You know, there are definitely places that are a lot harder to live so and and there’s you know, state healthcare here so I’ve actually had most of my transition elements covered by healthcare really well.

Oh, that’s awesome. That’s really great. That’s really really great. And and trauma recovery through the arts then is that is that something that you that you do through your life coaching or

what Yeah, so I had a very volatile and traumatic childhood so I have complex PTSD and and also had some things happen as an adult so that’s been something and actually music has been over the course of my life one of the main things that has helped me so even before I knew what you know, any of this work was I was using music to process feelings and you know, getting in touch with my body which is a big thing that people with PTSD are often have trouble connecting to their body and you have to connect to your body to be able to sing because you need the feedback loop you need to be getting information back from your body and not just telling it what to do. You need to know what those messages are doing right? So it requires a certain amount of connection to your body and awareness and awareness. Exactly right. So yes, I have done a lot of trauma and I have a certification in somatic embodiment. And I’m actually doing a year long program right now to learn a bunch of trauma things that are geared toward therapist obviously I’m not becoming a therapist, I’m just this is one of my main areas of interest. And and I also am very interested in something called voice movement therapy, which is basically making sounds making movements and kind of like letting things come out and for a lot of people like when I when I’ve done that work a lot of the people in the room have never done that before right have never explored the full range of their voice You know, I’ve seen people discover that they have you know, two octaves higher a voice than they realize just from letting their body make noises and the goal for that is not to then go and become a singer. But I think it’s a really cool modality as a as an art therapy.

Beautiful Yeah, it’s interesting when you especially if you make something playful, it you know, it can really unlock sound and people and that energy even just unlocking tension When you talked about the PTSD, and you know how your body kind of reacts to that, and a lot of people feel a lot of shame around their voice, because they don’t like the way it sounds, or they’ve been told that they don’t have a good singing voice. What would you say to someone like that?

Yeah, I actually had a voice student who was bullied a lot around her voice. And so that was something that we talked about quite a bit. And I guess the the main thing I would tell people is that you’re the only one that gets to decide what your voice means and why you’re using it. Right? So there are a lot of performers, a lot of famous performers who don’t have necessarily the most traditionally great singing voice, right? I mean, Bob Dylan is kind of one that people joke about, as, you know, being a great songwriter, but not necessarily a great singer. He has, he has, you know, very particular style, which is very recognizable. And there’s so much that you can do professionally, even if you’re not the best at one particular technical aspect of the thing. You know, you can always find examples of people who have, you know, a really unusual vibrato, for example, which I know a lot of people have feelings about their vibrato, or lack thereof, or, you know, don’t have very big range right there. They’re professional singers who work with a range of an octave and a half. And that’s just what they do. So yeah, I guess that’s my main piece of advice is you get to decide why you’re doing this, and then make it happen. Because ultimately people that are saying negative things to you to shut you down. That’s really about them. I think not about you.

That’s really good. That’s profound. And it’s so true. So we are coming towards the end of the of our interview. And I wanted to start wrapping wrapping things up. But I know we’re going to be listening to one of your pieces of music in a few minutes. And I’d love to if you’d like to introduce that. And tell us a little bit about. And actually one question I wanted to ask you was, you know, some people will be wondering, Is there much of a difference between the idea of being a songwriter versus being a composer? Because I know this piece that you’re you’ve done for us is it’s like, would you describe it as a song? Song? Yeah. Yeah.

And I would say that it just kind of a pop song. Yeah. Oh, great.

Okay. And so is it quite different from the other composing work that you do?

So I actually write a lot of songs. I have never produced a full album of that, although that is one of my goals in the next year or so I’m like, Okay, fine. I’ve written 100 songs that I like, I should finally make an album. So this song I wrote, probably six or seven years ago, it’s fairly short. It’s called Midas touch. And it’s about I mean, it’s an extended metaphor, basically about having having touched someone and turned them to gold, right, that that classic mythical story. And the record, so I took a recording that I had made with my sister, Rachelle LaNae, who is a singer songwriter, and that’s her playing piano, and then it’s me singing five years ago, so before, soon before certainty. And it’s funny because a lot of trans people have recorded duets of themselves with their like, current and former voice and so everybody does that. And I was like, uh, but but that’s basically what I’m doing is I added in a couple of lower harmony parts. And the original track it’s funny because when we were recording it, my sister was like, are you sure you want to sing so breathy because. But I was like, Yes, I’m doing this on purpose. I’m trying to have this sound this kind of feeling. And so the so I’m kind of trying to match that with the harmony parts. And at the very end of kind of letting my my current thicker voice come out a little bit. So

wonderful, though we really look forward to to listening to that in a moment. So if you would like to get in touch with mattia. They have a fantastic you’ve got your website, and is there any other way that you’d like to invite people to connect with you?

You are welcome to find me on Facebook. I’m the only Mattia Mauree on the internet. So I’m usually pretty easy to find. And I’m also on Instagram @pufflingmoo which is a baby Puffin and the noise that it makes.

Wonderful and I will be putting those details into the description notes with the various forms of the podcast as they come out. So is there anything that you’d like to say in general to our listeners before we finish up,

I really love your message of your voice matters. I really, really strongly feel that even if you have no desire to record or perform or you know, become a Big entertainer, you singing for yourself you singing at home singing, you know to for your family, all of these things are really meaningful. And I think that singing is really baked into the human experience. You know, we’ve been singing and language developed simultaneously as far as we can tell. So it’s a huge part of how we function. And we’ve added a bunch of instruments on to that, but I really think that voice is sort of the original instrument and it connects you to your body, it connects you to other people, and I really recommend just playing with it and not taking yourself too seriously.

That’s beautiful. Okay, thank you so much. mattia. It’s been an absolute pleasure to have you here. And I encourage anybody who’s listening to sing and connect with matea or myself or find a next step, join the choir in the local church or whatever is your next step. Sometimes we can be afraid to take it, but it is don’t be afraid to just try and I think we both have a similar value for music and value for singing. So I’m just so pleased that you were able to come on board and I hope that anybody who’s listening really feels that you know, yes, you do matter. Yes, thank you. So thanks again and bye bye.

See you Thank you.

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