From Edith Piaf To Amy Schumer With Gwenno Dafydd – Episode 18

Interview with Gwenno Dafydd

Gwenno Dafydd Williams M. Sc. Econ. is a leadership and public speaking coach, broadcaster, published author and performer. She has worked on television, radio, in films, theatre and cabaret and has performed in America and extensively around Europe and the UK. Her most recent performance was her one woman show about the French singer Edith Piaf in London’s West End. Gwenno also is a comedian and the author of ‘Stand up and Sock it to them Sister. Funny, Feisty Females’ about women crashing through the glass ceiling of comedy.

Connect with Gwenno

0:31  Welcome to the Confidence In Singing Podcast. I’m Aideen Ni Riada Wolpe and my guest today is Gwenno Dafydd, who is based in Wales. She is an awesome person, full of life, full of joy. She’s a  singer, and welcome Gwenno, please tell us a little bit more about you and introduce yourself.

0:52  Well, thank you very, very much. And I’m delighted to be on here because I love to sing. And I it’s going to be a really great opportunity to tell you all about my singing, singing is central to who I am. I actually work as a leadership and master public speaking coach, but I do loads and loads of different things. So maybe we can unravel those things as we’re going along. But I’ve been a singer since I was about three or four years of age. I’m Welsh we love to sing, we have a very musical lilt to our voices. And music has been a very, very important part of my life that my family’s life. And I started I suppose, going back to singing in chapel, and doing solos in chapel. And then we have this fantastic organization in Wales, which is called the National Eisteddfod is the Welsh league of youth. It’s the biggest youth organization throughout Europe. And what it does, it organizes all sorts of events for children’s sport, but also cultural. They have two cultural centers, one in Glanllyn and one in Glanllyn, and the other one is in Llangrannog. So Llangrannog caters to younger people, and Glanllyn is is for older people. And so the whole establishment is all about enabling young people to have confidence in their own abilities. And as part of that, they have their Eisteddfod and the Eisteddfod is essentially a meeting place where people sing, they perform, they dance, they play instruments, they do pieces of poetry. And so I was directed into the Eisteddfod system when I was very, very young, and I used to compete. I used to compete writing stories, and I won throughout Wales and writing a story and rate. And also, as a singer, I started in the Eisteddfod, and did quite well. And I also used to sing a lot my mother used to coach me. And at that time, somebody who played the piano for me was called Margaret Rhys. So from a very, very early age, I’ve been a singer. So

3:09  that’s wonderful. Well, the little bit,

3:14  I’m sorry, can I tell you a little bit more about yesterday the Eisteddfod actually is very key, I think, in the fact that so many Welsh performers have gone on to international levels, like people like Matthew Rhys, Ioan Gruffydd, and probably the best Welsh singer that you will know of, Bryn Terfel, also did his apprenticeship through the Eisteddfod and Eisteddfod platforms. So we also have the passion

3:41  It’so important that young people get opportunities. And one of the things that I noticed with my students is sometimes their parents are very encouraging at a young age, and then other kids, unfortunately, don’t get the opportunities and they don’t get the encouragement from family members, because maybe they don’t come from you know, it’s not a tradition or culture within the family. So you’re very lucky that your mother was so keen to put you forward for everything. She obviously saw a little spark of enthusiasm there from a young age with you

4:16 Well,she did, and also going back to that thing about, you know, some people aren’t as lucky. But the fact is, with the Urdd Eisteddfod, it doesn’t matter what your background is, because all the schools are based, you know, they have every March the first there will be in Eisteddfod in the school and that will lead and the to the children will be coached by their teachers. So no matter what your background is, you know, if you’ve got a spark of talent, as you say, you will go into that system and you will come out, you know, and you will become confident in your abilities. So the Urdd is really is key for us here in Wales. And yes, I

4:57 great because not all schools or countries have much music in the schools. That’s true.

5:03 Well, my dad and my good for you,

5:05 why don’t let me let me find out a bit more about you. It’s great to find out about Wales and all the wonderful benefits of living there. We’ll all move there now if we have kids, because it would be so keen to get them into the system that you’re talking about. But I’m more interested in finding out about your journey. So what, where did where did you go? Like, what was the? What was the goal for you? Like, What did you dream of doing when you were a child,

5:32  I was going to be a physical education teacher. And I went to college to train and I trained as a PE teacher. And I had to change direction after three months, and it was devastating, absolutely devastating. And I was dreadfully unhappy and stayed on in college, and I didn’t have to change from advancement in physical education to it changed. I was doing drama as well. So I changed my drama to advanced main drama. And then I did Welsh, but I never wanted to be a teacher. Other than a physical,

6:06  why are you so passionate about physical education at the time?

6:09  Well, I was always a runner, and I, I really had a talent for running. And I used to be, you know, cross country, capitaina athletics, capitain hockey team, netball team, you know, I’m I was a very physical child. And so those are the things that were really important. It built up my leadership skills, you know, being captain of different teams was very, very good for my leadership skills. And also, I just, you know, I just loved it. And it was devastating. When I had to change direction, I really was very long. What was,

6:50  how did it work out for you then in drama college? What was it that that? What did you what benefit Did you find having done that, in the end,

6:59  I got a certificate of education as a teacher. And that was about the only thing really, but also, I discovered that I was very, very good at comedy roles and comic roles. But anyway, I went off to Belgium. And this is where it starts to get a little bit more bohemian and interesting, because I lived there for five years, and I was an au pair. And then, of course, I sang and I was singing with a choir Oh, singing with the European Union, international choir. And so I was doing that, and I loved it really enjoyed it. I was also performing with the English comedy club of Brussels. And we did things like musical and I love that and really enjoyed it. And then one day, I was in a place with my friend. And there was a group of Irish musicians playing and I thought they’re really, really good. And I went up to them. And they weren’t Irish at all. They were Hungarian brothers who’d been born in Paris and had lived in Brussels, and we’re passionate about Irish folk music. So I went up to them. And I said, Oh, you’re brilliant. I said, there’s one thing you need. And he said, What is it? What would we need? And I said, you need a singer? And they said, Well, where are we going to find the singer and I said, Here I am. So I started singing with them in gigs, all around Belgium. And we were doing Irish songs. And I loved the old Irish warrior songs, you know, the, the rebel zone, I remember songs, and things like the nightingale, and the old triangle and all of those, and I used to sing those. And they used to go busking. And after a few years, when I been an au pair, then I’d worked as a governess and I worked in an old paper, so And because I was still I was performing with my band. I was a regular singer, by then I didn’t want to go back to Wales. So I started busking. And I stood there and I sang Welsh traditional folk songs with a little basket in front of my feet, and just sang in Gallerie de la Reine, made some money, bought a guitar, taught myself to play guitar, and then started singing in the restaurants around the tourist areas. And I used to go and sing in various places around Belgium, with a different place. I’d go to Bruges say Monday, Antwerp on Tuesday. Then I’d go to Ostend, I go to Knokke. I go to all sorts of places, ghent on a different day of the week, and I would sing in restaurants. And in the summer, I would sing on the terraces, and I would sometimes busk and I made enough money to keep me living. I also taught English as a foreign language. So that was the beginning of my dual career performance and sharing knowledge. So I’ve done those things in my life.

9:53  Maybe you’ll allow me to ask you another question. And because I’m interested to know If your pursuit of singing developed you, in terms of your, you know, you’d already mentioned that you use good leadership skills, and you’ve done an awful lot sounds like you were in training. From the time you were three years old, to to stand out a little bit, you know, to be very much an empowered person. Have you ever been lacking in confidence? And the other question is, what how did you like, develop what developed for you through the singing when you were doing all of that?

10:33  Well, first of all, mostly have I ever been yet, constantly throughout my life, I have been knocked down more times than I would like to recognize, but my principle in life is if you get if you fall off the horse, you have to get back on as quickly as you possibly can, before the horse rides off into the dust. Singing has given me confidence in my own abilities, you know, when people were coming up and say, No, that’s beautiful, that’s lovely, I really, you really touched me, of course, that’s going to give you a lot of self confidence. And so by busking that did give me a lot of self confidence in my abilities to be able to touch people, because there are lots of people out there who have far, far better voices than I have, you know, land is Wales, is the land of song. And there are so many people who sing way, way better than I do. But the one of the main things that I can do, I can touch people with emotion. And that was one of the things that my mother used to teach me, she said, but you’ve got to make them feel what you’re singing about. You know, and it’s so true. You know, I was listening last night, every week, I go to Jazz at the Royal Welsh College of Music and Drama. And I try and support the young performers. There. There’s this fabulous young singer there, called Caroline Ferriera from Switzerland. And she’s got, she’s got an absolutely beautiful voice. And also she’s got the personality to go with it. And, but she’s still lacking a little bit on the transference of feelings she had communicates really, really well with her audience. But one of the things I think, is that I can translate the feelings that I have is that life hasn’t been generous to me at times. But I’ve always been able to use that to put it into my music and the way that I bring that emotion of a song over because I think the emotion is so so key to connecting with people.

12:32  Yes, and one thing that I always suggest, because I teach people who don’t normally sing, and I teach a lot of adult singers, but I really feel that it doesn’t matter. If you’re going to sing or busk. You know, no matter what level of singing you do, when you put your heart and soul into a song, you’re, you’re communicating a lot more than just the words of the song, you’re communicating your wisdom, you’re communicating you all of your experiences in that area. And you’re understanding, and nobody can stand up and sing an emotional song unless they have, to some degree, conquered that emotion within themselves. And if they haven’t touched on that emotion within themselves, then it does fall flat. And sometimes when very young performers perform songs that are about heartbreak, they don’t know how to communicate that because they don’t they haven’t had that experience. So I suppose there’s the one benefit of heartbreak, guys. Oh, well, you might be able to sing about it really well, someday. And not that I recommend it. But it’s always worth waiting for somebody who’s got who’s got the right match for you. So a heartbreak for the wrong person is well worth your time. And really, they’re going Oh, tell me a little bit more about when you started singing Edith Piaf songs,

13:49  what I think what you, you, you actually that was a great lead into it. So great supposition and great question, in fact, because I found out about Edith Piaf when I was in my early 20s, when I was busking and singing on the street, I found her music, and something about it touched me. And she’s been my constant and ever present role model since I was about 21. So that’s quite a while now. And one of the things that captivated me about her was the element of really, really engaging with her audience through the passion of her feelings. You know, if you listen to her, you know, there are better singers than Edith Piaf, but there’s nobody on this earth who was able to connect with the audience with the emotion of what she was singing about. So what was quite ironic, really, so I found out about her. When I was in my early 20s. She was my role model. She was a street singer, she rose from rags to riches, you know, she was born on a policeman’s coat in Paris on the street. And you know her story, I mean she really lived her life and she burnt out like a, you know, she burnt out like a comet at a very early age. She was only 47 When she died, but she had lived every single moment. And so what was ironic was I came back from Belgium in 1983, because my brother was dying of cancer, unfortunately. And when I was living in Belgium, I used to sing in French, in English in Dutch and in Welsh, but when I came back to Britain, I was somehow I ended up singing in French a lot and I did a lot of international cabarets with a group of people and our agent was somebody called Doreen O’Neill and Doreen O’Neill took Bryn Terfel onto her books. And once that happened, it was not much work for the rest of us because she was snowed under with work for Bryn Terfel, and rightly so. However, so I used to do lots of international cabarets and I used to sing lots of songs and French Dutch, I used to sing like a lot of Kurt Weill, Bertolt Brecht type of things, and some songs in Spanish and Italian. And because I have a very, very good ear, you know, I’m a parrot. And because of that, I’m very good at reproducing other sounds. So I didn’t have any problems with all of those languages and singing them in, you know, more or less the right sound. And I still love singing in lots of different languages.

16:34  Did you find it difficult to sing with the same emotion? Singing with other languages? Because obviously, we know the general meaning of it. But sometimes when we’re singing in another language, we’re not as connected to the each and every word the way you would be, if you’re speaking in your own kind of native language. How did you handle that?

16:56  Yeah, I agree with you. However, because I was very good at finding the emotion and songs, it never seemed to be a problem for me. You know, like, for example, the songs that have occurred Bertolt Brecht ones that are very guttural, very deep, and it’s all about prostitutes, mostly, mainly, you know, but, so he’s able to access those things, excuse me, I need some water.

17:25  So, but I can understand that because I remember I went on a course with a fabulous teacher called Mary Hammond. And she did musical theater, she used to come down from London, to coach the people in the Royal Welsh music of college and drama in Cardiff, and used to open up the courses for people who are interested. And I used to go along because Mary Hammond was recognized as the top of her tree. And what she said to me was, you know, because I’d sing songs in English, and then I’d sing songs in Welsh, and she would say, your emotion is way, way more defined when you sing in Welsh. So there is that issue. Yes, I agree.

18:05  Hmm, it’s just, it’s just an interesting thing to keep in mind. And something that if you are, if you do want to sing in other languages, that you that you dive deep into the, the language and dive deep into the meaning, not just of each word, but the meanings behind the words, the depth of the emotion behind the actual words, there, you can get extra fuel for that communication.

18:33  I think so, you know, in the same way, you know, I’ve been a performer, I’ve been an actress in Wales, I did a huge amount of work in my 20s, in my early 30s. And, you know, you hear of in French, they have two words for actor, and I think it’s so I’ve forgotten the name of it, I can’t remember. But they’ve got to two names for actors. And one is a method actor. So that person will really dive deep, and they will even go out and live as that character for a while. And the other one is someone who is exactly the same in every role that they play. And I think the same goes with songs, you know, you have, you’ve got to have, you know, you’ve really got to believe that song, you know, and you’ve got to understand and get it right under the emotion of it. Because if you don’t, how are you going to connect with your audience? You know, and, of course, the connection with the audience has a lot to do with I think it’s two things really, you know, it’s the nonverbal communication, and the, the actual eye contact, the eye contact is key. Absolutely key, you know, and, but the other thing is really, really engaging yourself with the emotion of that song. What’s it all about? You know, is there a backstory? What is it where does it sit in context, as he says, so? Yeah, it’s very important. To link into the emotion.

20:02  Wonderful. And tell me a little bit more about your more recent and musical interests. I know that you write, when did you start writing songs for it, for instance? Well,

20:15  again, I started when I was 21. I had this idea is I don’t know what it was, I just felt that I had to express myself. And so I probably written about 150 lyrics, I don’t write songs, or like write lyrics. I work with a songwriting partner at all times. I’ve written an anthem for Saint David’s Day, which I’m particularly proud of. And 14 years down the line, I’ve written the lyrics in English and in Welsh, because I feel passionately that there are people in Wales who identify as Welsh, but who can’t speak the language as their first language. So the music was written by Heulwen Thomas but most of the time I work with someone called Katherine Cole. And we’ve written an anthem for, for Scottish independence. And so Kath wrote the music, I went up to Scotland in 2014, to campaign for Scottish independence, and came away wrote the words, took them to Kath, told her what I was looking for, she came up with the music. And since then, last year, I made a film for the Scottish song. And also I did a film for the Welsh song. So there’s a Welsh version in Welsh and in English, so

21:31  wonderful. And how can people access those?

21:34  Well, we are in the process of launching our label, which is going to be called it’s called Coctel, which is C-O-C-T-E-L, which is the Welsh version, but they’re not easily said by non-Welsh speakers, as well. So Coctel, we’re going to be launching just before Christmas, hopefully, we’re going to have a song, a Christmas song, which is called I can’t remember what it’s called. It’s about looking through Windows. And it’s basically, it’s this is a way that we communicate with people now through windows, whether that be a window, like the name of the computer, but also the tiny windows that we have on our screens, but so we can’t look at the tiny windows into people’s homes anymore, we look at them through these tiny windows. So that’s going to be the first song that’s going to be in Welsh and in English, then we’ll be doing the Scottish trilogy, it will also be sent. Kath has written two musicals. And so those songs will be available some of the songs I’ve written with other people, but also I’ll be putting the Piaf songs up there because I’ve, I’ve got a one woman show, which as I went back two, three years ago, I nearly died. I had lung clot. Clots on the lungs that nearly killed me. And whilst I was recuperating from this and four broken ribs, I don’t do things. But I have decided, well, what if I’ve only got a live a year to live and I thought, well, if I’ve only got a year to live, I want to take my one woman show up to the West End. And I want to perform it there. And the show is called Passionate about Piaf.

23:17  And I know that I know I understand why you speak so fast. Oh, you’re on a mission to achieve as much as you can in the short life that you have. I have. But you can. You can slow down you can slow down a little. Tell me about the West End. Was that as exciting as you hoped it would be? Yes.

23:35  I mean, it wasn’t one of these big big, you know, theaters. It was a beautiful, beautiful cabaret environment, which is called Zedels Brazzerie and it is stunning. Check it out  Zedels Brazzerie, and they’ve got How do you spell that Zedels Brazzerie and as you go into it, it’s opposite where Jamie forgotten his surname. He had to restaurant, Jamie Oliver. That’s the one, by Jamie. Jamie Oliver’s restaurant is dead opposite, or at least it was anyway and it’s off Piccadilly. So it’s in the West End. And you go in and it’s a French Brasserie with with beautiful waiters with a long, long pin of fours. There’s a doorman there, and you go away. It’s fabulous. And it’s like very 1930s and then there’s 1930s posters everywhere. Then you go downstairs and there’s a huge restaurant. They’re huge. And they do a very, very nice daily plate for 12 pounds, where you get to dessert and you get

24:45  you’re giving them a beautiful advertisements but tell us about your experience with performance.

24:51  Okay, the performance they have an absolutely stunning little 80 to 100 seater theater. Next to the restaurant, and that’s where I performed. And it was a friend of mine who is recently deceased. Unfortunately, Lynn Ruth Miller, who is my comedy mentor, she had told me that it would be a great place for me to go and perform. I managed to get a gig there. And it went very well sold out. And we’re hoping to go back to do the show there. Again, it was very exciting. A wonderful friend of mine had come over from Paris. He’s a fashion designer, and I’m gonna name him because I was so delighted. His name is Malan Breton. And we met him in a piano bar in New York, which is called Don’t tell mama, it’s off restaurant row. And he I, I met him there. We both sang, we got on like a house on fire. This is 10 years ago. And he did Project Runway, so and he’s an absolutely amazing singer. Absolutely. And he came over from Paris to see the show. And it was I was so so over the moon, it had, you know, I had a standing ovation and two encores. So I was wonderful. And after that, we did loads of shows around Cardiff. We had one of the Cotswolds lined up, we had one in Swansea, and then COVID struck. So

26:26  that’s been hard, I bet. Can you tell me and for the listeners? What, what how would you say? You? How would you organize something like that? So, you know, there’s, there’s a lot of people that would be listening to the show that maybe are more amateur singers, or they’ve been singing as a hobby, but they might want to maybe perform at an open mic night, or some of them may want to, you know, do a gig at a restaurant or something like that. What advice would you give someone at that stage, knowing yourself having been through?

27:02  Well, there’s a couple of ways first of all, is the only thing you can do is just get on with it. And off, you just get out there and you you may well be petrified. But you’ve got to get it in a diary. And you’ve got to force yourself to get out there and do it because it’s no good how you know how amazing you are with a hairbrush at home. That’s not where you want to be performing, you need to get an audience. So first of all, obviously, go and book your spot in an open mic. Now even if you just stand there and sing acapella, it doesn’t matter. Just go and do it. So I ended up buying a guitar and teaching myself how to play I’m not a very good instrumentalist. I don’t like it. So if you want to go and get a backing tape, go and get it back in, take your tape you buy them off line, you know, that’s another thing or find yourself an accompanist. If you can’t find yourself in a company as you may well find one when you get up on stage. But the only thing you can do is to just get up there and do it. I’ve written a book about women in stand up comedy, which is another passion of mine. And the book is called Stand up & Sock it to them Sisters. Funny, Feisty Females took me 20 years to write. But the top, you know, the advice that everybody was giving was just get out there and do it, no one’s going to do it on your behalf. So find something that you feel really secure and record yourself, get somebody to record you and just look at your nonverbal communication. Make sure you’re not wooden, use your hands. If you don’t know, you know, do some mic technique before you get up on stage. You know, make sure don’t go up there and just say 1212 That is so unprofessional. I really hate it. So one of the main pieces of advice that all of these people that I interviewed, I interviewed 94 people worldwide, including 65 females stand up comics, which had never, ever been done before. And all of them said, you just have to get out there and do it, you know, you can. So so that’s my main piece of advice is find out where your local open mic is. Get down there, see what the competition is like and put your name down so that you know you you’re on and that you can you can really focus on doing it. The first time is going to be scary. Of course it is you know when the first time I sang with with just my little basket in front of me in the in the galleries or Galleries de la Reine in Brussels was terrifying. Terrifying. But I you know, that was the first time and after that it gets easy, you know?

29:51  Wonderful. And for busking. How long did you stand out like did you do an hour set? Or did you just kind of do a few songs and then take a break

29:59  No, I used to cause the thing is I used to depend on when the police were around really, you know, if they were around, they chased me off and I just find somewhere else to busk. But it would be probably an hour at a time. I, you know, I built up my repertoire and tried to find songs that please the public, really. So I do a few Beatles songs, I do a couple of, you know, popular French songs, I did a couple of Belgian ones, French, you know, Dutch. So but you know, some songs were better earners than others, it just used to depend, it depended on how much time I had. But when I was out busking, if I was singing in the restaurant, you’d sing for tops, that would be enough because people would tolerate for but they didn’t go out to listen to me singing, they went out to have fun with their friends. So you know, I was very, very aware of not disturbing people for too long. Really. That’s what people were always very generous. You know, I used to have notes, you know, like money notes, so I wouldn’t just be coins, it would be lots of money. Someone gave me a gold ring once I was invited to sing in somebody else’s wedding. And I did end up making a record in Belgium, which was a remix of downtown by Petula Clark and puppet on the string. And I was on a television program with Kim Wilde. And she was really lovely. Yeah, yeah.

31:33  Well, that’s actually the closest I got to being on TV with someone famous was, I think it was Sarah Brightman. And I was the get I was a guest singer on, I was like the audience member singer, on a show called the lyric sport, which was a game show where certain words of the lyrics would be revealed. And then everyone would have to guess what the name of the song was. So I sang at the end of the show, as as you know, a guest, that I had picked a song that they that I wanted the celebrity guests to, to guess. So that was that was actually when I was about 21, as well. So but that’s amazing. Is there anything else you’d like to mention about your singing or your performing? Before we talk a little bit about your leadership work and wind things up a little bit?

32:26  Well, yes, we want to get the show out. And at the moment, the troupe well. I work through a company called multi show productions. And they’ve been really hit hard with COVID. Because they had a couple of shows during the rounds. We’ve worked really hard on passionate about Piaf, we’ve got a fabulous promotional film about it. And we’re looking for gigs. If anybody wants to give us a concert tour in America, that would be amazing. Thank you very much. We’re all up for that. And in Britain, yes, we could do little gigs. We’ve got one now booked in for 2022, we’ll be going to do our consoles gig. My aim is next year, I’d like to play in the jazz tenting Glastonbury, I would like to perform in Ronnie Scott in London. And I would like to go and perform in the Edinburgh Fringe Festival. Those are my wants, those are the things I’d really like to the songs will be available that you can buy piece by piece on the platform, which I if that’s okay with you, I will give you a link and then maybe you can put that with this interview?

33:45  Absolutely, of course we will. I’m sure people will be very curious to hear your voice now that they’ve heard you talk about all the experience you have. And all the interesting things that you’ve done. If anybody knows any wannabe comics, your book would be perfect Christmas gift or for this year or next year. So let’s keep that in mind as well. Everybody. Let me show you the book. No. So this is Gwenno’s book Stand up and Sock it to them Sister, and for and it’s interviewing over 60 female comedians, which hadn’t ever been done before. So Gwenno, thank you for showing us that. And I hope someone will. Oh it’s a nice meaty book as well. Lots of content in there

34:33  Twenty years of my life. Yes, Amy Schumer’s in there. Joan Rivers is in there, Jo brand. I got loads of American comics. It’s really it’s, it’s been it’s it’s been called the ultimate cannon of female stand up comics. So what a

34:50  wonderful legacy to leave. It’s absolutely wonderful that you’ve you’ve done that it takes a lot of focus and determination to finish something like that. So um, Really proud of you for doing that? Okay, everyone, we’re wrapping things up now. And so just bear in mind Gwenno isn’t just an amazing creative person with her singing and her writing and her comedy acting. She’s also does leadership skills with businesses and corporations, and helps people to be feel empowered in the workplace. So I’m going to, would you like to share your website for that, in case anybody listening is interested in that element?

35:29  Well, I’ve got everything. In fact, everything is all together on my linktree. So this is a very helpful thing. It’s HTTPS dot dot forward slash, forward slash Gwenno Dafydd. Everything’s there. My website. The thing about Stand up & Sock it to them Sisters, my Piaf stuff, all of it is there, all the stuff I do on television, I do live television every three weeks. I’m a talking head on a program. So it’s all there. And also testimonials from some of my clients. I’m working with a young woman in Toronto, who is giving me monthly testimonials. So you can see exactly what coaching is all about, really. So that’s, there’s tons of stuff out there. If you can remember my name, Gwenno Dafydd, then it’ll link into

36:21 and if you can remember how to spell it? Yeah. It’s been an absolute pleasure having you on the show, Gwenno, I think you’re an inspiration to me to be to allow all the different tendrils of my creativity to expand in every direction. Because I think a lot of us get, we get to single minded and we have the blinkers on. And it feels to me that you’ve been very, you’ve kept a wide Vista throughout your career, and you’ve expressed yourself in so many ways, and you haven’t held yourself back. And I think the biggest problem for most people, whether they’re singers, or people who are in business, or in any creative field is that we do tend to hold ourselves back and we are a little bit scared to be seen. So take Gwenno as your stand up, stand up and be seen. Yes. And we look forward to looking up some of your wonderful projects going Oh, thank you for being here.

37:24 thank you for having me. And can I just say on a final note, you know, for anybody who wants to really enrich their lives, sing, it’s brought me such joy. It really has.

37:37 Wonderful, thank you so much Gwenno, that’s it, everybody. We’ll see you on the next episode of the Confidence in Singing podcast.

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